Property:Query
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This is a property of type Text.
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Excelsior Town Ball Club of Cincinnati v Kentucky Town Ball Club of Newport on 20 June 1863undefined +
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<div class="x1n2onr6 x1iorvi4 x4uap5 x18d9i69 x1swvt13 x78zum5 x1q0g3np x1a2a7pz">
<div class="x1r8uery x1iyjqo2 x6ikm8r x10wlt62 x1pi30zi">
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<div class="xmjcpbm x1tlxs6b x1g8br2z x1gn5b1j x230xth x9f619 xzsf02u x1rg5ohu xdj266r x11i5rnm xat24cr x1mh8g0r x193iq5w x1mzt3pk x1n2onr6 xeaf4i8 x13faqbe">
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<div dir="auto">[] Are we seeing modern "standings" (perhaps with winning pct, games behind) any time soon? Why would they list teams alphabetically rather than by number of wins?</div>
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<div dir="auto"><a class="x1i10hfl xjbqb8w x6umtig x1b1mbwd xaqea5y xav7gou x9f619 x1ypdohk xt0psk2 xe8uvvx xdj266r x11i5rnm xat24cr x1mh8g0r xexx8yu x4uap5 x18d9i69 xkhd6sd x16tdsg8 x1hl2dhg xggy1nq x1a2a7pz x1heor9g xt0b8zv" tabindex="0" href="https://www.facebook.com/richard.hershberger.16?comment_id=Y29tbWVudDo1NDY4NjYwMDI2NTIxMzQ2XzIzODk4Njk0MDExNzk5NDY%3D&__cft__[0]=AZUgz5YvrcCa3_mwwAYlmV9giB-8QFXfCvvSnTSb8N-_DaOjb5O-5-LZY_-cU-Orc4j7dZSMzru2nup_jrYhnSnlVd95BuIEAzsolHN7qTpW9livY7o8UsydVeQZBVq1Y-Y&__tn__=R]-R"><span class="x3nfvp2"><span class="x193iq5w xeuugli x13faqbe x1vvkbs x1xmvt09 x1lliihq x1s928wv xhkezso x1gmr53x x1cpjm7i x1fgarty x1943h6x x4zkp8e x676frb x1nxh6w3 x1sibtaa x1s688f xzsf02u" dir="auto">Richard Hershberger</span></span></a>, 10/29/2022 -- "I'm not actually sure when we start to see the modern format. That passed by me without my consciously noting. Sometime in the 1880s, maybe?"</div>
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<div dir="auto">[] Is it likely that cricket already used box scores by 1845? Would that have influenced Chadwick and others v=covering base ball?</div>
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<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="color: black; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';"><span style="font-size: medium;">Jeff Kittel notes: "</span></span><span style="color: black; font-family: 'Arial','sans-serif';"><span style="font-size: medium;">Protoball doesn't have any references to wicket clubs in Illinois during this period, although there is a reference to a 1857 club in Iowa. Ottawa and Marseilles are in LaSalle County, Illinois, on the Illinois River, about 50 miles southwest of Chicago. It's possible that the game experienced a period of popularity in central Illinois and Iowa. Clinton City, where the Iowa wicket club was located, is on the Mississippi, about sixty miles west of Ottawa and Marseilles. Now the headline says that this was a game of base ball, rather than wicket, but the box score, which I attached, is kind of odd - three innings, possibly playing first to 200 runs. Sadly, they don't give us any information on the number of players per side." </span></span></p> +
<p>"Long ball": See 1853.20.</p>
<p>"B-hoys": See 1847.14.</p>
<p>Can we determine the ages of the players?</p>
<p> </p> +
<p>"Pedal members"? A pretty good Harvard friend of Protoball can't explain this term.</p>
<p>"Delta"? </p>
<p> </p>
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<p>"The fellow in the middle?" Does this suggest the lack of foul ground?</p>
<p>What/where is Bridgewater? Was Bridgewater MA Latham's home town, maybe?</p> +
<p> </p>
<p><strong>Note:</strong> We need to confirm whether the Domesday Book actually uses the term "bittle-battle," "stool ball," or what. We also should try to ascertain views of professional scholars on the interpretations of the Book. Martin Hoerchner advises that the British Public Records Office may, at some point, make parts of the Domesday Book available online.</p>
<p>I've not found bittle-battle in the Domesday book [ba]</p> +
<p> </p>
<p>Do we know if and when baseball's rules mandated these "battery alleys?" Do we know when they were rescinded? (It is said that only Detroit and Arizona parks use then today.) </p>
<p>Are there other explanations for this practice in 1860?</p>
<p>Can someone retrieve Tom Shieber's original SABR-L posting?</p>
<p>Can we assume/guess that the 1860 <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Clipper</span> piece was written by Henry Chadwick?</p>
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<p>Do we know know if this and other fungo style batting games were known elsewhere in the US? </p> +
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<p>Do we know of other accounts of "Sun and Planet?" A quick internet search in 2021 did not find the game.</p>
<p>Do we know much about indoor play of stool ball?? About stool-ball versions for youths?</p> +
1
<p> </p>
<p>Is a balk rule -- or the "stolen" base -- known in cricket or English Base Ball? Or in any pre-1845 baserunning game?</p>
<p><span>Protoball welcomes further comment on the possible origin of the </span><span class="sought_text">balk</span><span> rule.</span></p>
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<p>Is it clear why someone would create such a letterhead?</p>
<p>Can we find a fuller description of drive ball?</p>
<p>How does Protoball give a source for John's Tweet for later users who want to see it?</p>
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<p>Is there any way we can zero in on the date and location of this pastime?</p>
<p>Do we know what was meant by "Foot Ball" in the early 19th Century?</p>
<p>Can we determine what "the Academy" was, and the ages of its students?</p> +
<p> </p>
<p>Richard Hershberger (email of 2/16/2023) has expressed doubt that the writer is from New York: "Do we know where the writer was from? It would be very surprising if he were from New York."</p>
<p>Is it generally known whether SOT generally favored reports from certain regions in the 1840??</p>
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<p>Was this a team game or a rotational scrub/workup game?</p>
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<p>[] It appears that the batsman is obliged to run to a second marker <em>and then return</em>; is that the way one-o-cat was commonly played? (It does appear to be the rule for [[barn ball]].) -- Protoball functionary, 2/2/2021.</p>
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<p>[] are there other reliable published sources of the evolution of table-top games, besides John's 2011 blog?</p>
<p>[] is anyone known to be attempting to reconstruct and play this game, or others?</p>
<p>[] can we determine what game events are given in the field of this apparatus?</p>
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<p> Is the cartoon dated? Is a location given?</p>
<p> Is the content from source [3], from 1860, known?</p> +
<p> It might be informative to learn whether this novel has a particular setting (wicket is only known in selected areas) and/or where author Mansfield lived.</p>
<p>Is it clear that the setting is the United States?</p>
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<p> It would be interesting to know whether the Richmond group asked to see base ball played or it was recommended by New Yorkers.</p>
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<p>() Any idea why this morsel hadn't turned up before 2014?</p>
<p>() By 1860, the modern game seems well-established in Chicago -- was it still unfamiliar elsewhere in IL as late as 1866? </p>
<p>() The writer seems unfamiliar with the modern force-out rule; wasn't that introduced prior in base ball prior to 1866?</p>
<p>() Is it possible that the absence of a comment about the modern no-plugging rule means that local town ball already used a no-plugging rule?</p>
<p>() Many throwback articles mention that the new ball is harder than traditional balls. Could local town ball have already employed hard balls?</p> +
<p>(A) The Protoball PrePro data base in shows that 44 runs were scored in 8.5 innings in this July 4 game. That's nearly three runs per half-inning.</p>
<p>(See http://protoball.org/Lone_Star_BBC_Club_of_Rochester_v_Live_Oak_Club_of_Rochester_on_4_July_1860)</p>
<p>So there were lots of baserunners that day.</p>
<p>But there were reportedly only about 2 catcher throws to bases in each half-inning. If bases were stolen routinely in this gloveless era, wouldn't more throws be expected?</p>
<p>(B) Were catcher throws to the bases not similarly recorded in downstate games?</p> +
P
<p>(Does South Africa have a Boston, too? From Wikipedia, 2022: "Boston is a small town situated in the Mkhomazi and Elands River valley of KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa.")</p>
<p>Is it clear why this game is called a cricket/rounders hybrid, and not just a cricket offshoot?</p>
<p>Is this game known in Britain and America?</p>
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1
<p>1848 was the year (see <span style="text-decoration: underline;">Baseball in the Garden of Eden</span>, p. 35) that the Knickerbockers set out to re-consider their rules. Did they address playing rules, or just operational ones? Do we know what changes emanated?</p> +
<p><span> </span></p>
<p><span>[] Query from Peter Mancuso, 8/6/22 posting to 19CBB:</span></p>
<p><span>"Apparently the Knickerbockers in addition to playing on some reserved field in Hoboken's Elysian Fields also maintained a more steady presence there with the rental of a room, apparently for exclusive use of the club's members. This taken a step further, begs the question of whether this was a unique relationship limited to the Knickerbockers, or did other clubs also have such an arrangement with the grounds' owners?"</span></p>
<p><span>[] Is it supposed that the Hoboken "room" served as a primitive clubhouse? </span></p> +
<p><span>Have charts like this appeared before? Have writers been referring to such averages in plumbing the relative merits of batsmen?</span></p>
<p><span>Did each club send its data to interested news outlets?</span></p> +
<p><strong>D</strong>oes the full <em>Daily Eagle </em>article say more about two old cat and other safe-haven games?</p>
<p>Can we retrieve David's details in his posting?</p>
<p> </p> +
<p><strong>I</strong>is Lester saying this is the first Haverford all-native team, first US all-native team, or what? </p>
<p>Can we resolve the discrepancy between 1834 and 18"before 1842" as the time that the club formed?</p> +
<p><strong>Note: </strong>can we determine what Union Army units were deployed to Port Royal and the Sea Islands in early 1863?</p> +
<p><strong>Note:</strong> Can we get text from the sourced citation [A] , and a source for the text citation [B] ? Was this one game or two? How can we find out more about the "Henson club" and the Unknowns?</p> +
<p><strong>Note:</strong> Do we know the outcome? Was cricket attempting to counteract baseball's surge? If so, how? Why didn't it work?</p> +
<p><strong>Note:</strong> Is it possible to determine the approximate date of this event?</p> +
<p><strong>Note:</strong> It would be useful to ascertain what Dutch phrase was translated as "playing ball," and whether the phrase denotes a certain type of game. The population of Manhattan at this time was about 800 [were there enough resident Englishmen to sustain cricket?], and the area was largely a fur trading post. Is it possible that the burghers imported this text from the Dutch homeland?</p>
<p>Can anyone out there google in Dutch?</p> +
<p><strong>Note:</strong> Pycroft was first published in 1851. See item #[[1851.1]]. Was this material in the first edition?</p> +
<p><strong>Note:</strong> can we locate an original source for the Dryden data?</p>
<p>I can't find a mention of this in any online newspaper. A Carlton Dryden, Sgt. in the 10th Iowa, is the likeliest candidate for the "Sgt. Dryden" mentioned.</p> +
<p><strong>Note:</strong> does "place the men on bases" refer to the fielders? Presumably in the MA game such positioning wasn't needed because there was plugging, and there were no force plays at the bases?</p> +
<p><strong>Note:</strong> does this article imply that previously, base ball on the Common was relatively rare?</p> +
<p><strong>Note:</strong> these results seems like deliberates exceptions to the 21-run rule; are there others? Was the 21-run rule proving too short for practice games?</p> +
<p><strong>Note:</strong> we need a fuller citation and the key text. Is it possible that this entry confuses D'Urfey's 1694 play about Don Quixote [see Entry #1694.1, below] with the Cervantes masterpiece?</p> +
<p><strong>Note:</strong> Dean Sullivan [7/29/2004] observes that Harold Seymour puts the year of play at Bangor at 1836, citing both pages 198 and 240 of <span>The Discovery of a Grandmother.</span> But Payne was born in 1812, and was not a "boy" in 1836, so this event needs further examination.</p>
<p>Also:This item needs to be reconciled with #[[1823c.4]], below.</p> +
<p><strong>Note</strong>: Can we determine what region of NC is under discussion here? Text of the biography is unavailable via Google Books as of 11/15/2008. </p> +
<p><strong>Notes:</strong> can we establish the age of King's father at King's birth?</p>
<p>Can we determine where the two Kings might have played?</p> +
<p><strong>Notes:</strong> </p>
<p>Is it accurate to call this a "town ball" club? When was it formed? Dean Sullivan dates it to 1837, while J. M. Ward [<span style="text-decoration: underline;">Ward's Base Ball</span> Book, page 18] sets 1831 as the date of formation. The constitution was revised in 1837, but the Olympic Club merged with the Camden Town ball Club in 1833, and that event is regarded as the formation date of the Olympics. The story of the Olympics is covered in "Sporting Gossip," by "the Critic" in an unidentified photocopy found at the Giamatti Research Center at the HOF. What appears to be a continuation of this article is also at the HOF. It is "Evolution of Baseball from 1833 Up to the Present Time," by Horace S. Fogel, and appeared in <span style="text-decoration: underline;">The Philadelphia Daily Evening Telegraph</span>, March 22-23, 1908.</p>
<p><strong>2 </strong>Are we certain that the "firsts" listed in this entry predate the initial appearance of the indicated innovations in American cricket?</p>
<p> </p> +
<p><strong>Query:</strong> do we know the nature of the ball games of "skip" and "hit or miss?"</p> +
<p><strong>Query:</strong> Does the game appear to uses bases?</p>
<p> <em>No. Like most forms of longball, there are a home line and a goal line at opposite ends of the field.</em></p> +
<p><strong>[A] </strong>Is "Pony Club" a common term for teen clubs?</p>
<div><span><span> - - from John Thorn, 9/22/20: "The Clipper has citations for "pony team" from 1874 on, perhaps signifying junior team or just whippersnappers. Here, from Sept 8, 1888:"</span></span></div>
<div><span><span> </span></span></div>
<div><span><span><span>BOSTON, Sept 2 . —Coming home with a record of seven victories in eight games is a far different thing from doing so after having won four games out of twenty. Add to this the fact that three straight victories were gained over New York on their own heath and that by what Boston fans look upon as a<span> </span></span><span class="highlightcolor">pony team</span><span>, and it is little wonder that the warmest and most enthusiastic kind of a welcome was bestowed upon the Boston team on Thursday last and that cheer after cheer greeted the appearance of the nine and each man as he stepped to the bat.<span> </span></span></span></span></div>
<p>---</p>
<p><strong>[B] </strong>Wasn't $1500 a tidy sum in 1867?</p>
<p> -- from John Thorn, 9/22/20: "$1500 was a hefty prize: $<strong>27,783.73 </strong>in 2019 dollars (via Consumer Price Index adjustment)."</p> +
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<p>Altherr [p. 27] puts this date "at the turn of the century." Do we know where the 1797 date originated? Was Webster at Dartmouth then?</p> +
<p>Altherr reports that "Gilbert described some sort of ball play as common on the village commons." (See Block, Ibid., page 241). Can we determine Gilbert's usage in calling such play common? Does the clue that the ball was "worsted" (woolen, or made of wool cloth?) add a helpful clue as to the nature of the game played?</p> +
<p>An article has appeared about Smith's journal. See Woodward, Ruth, "Journal at Nassau Hall," PULC 46 (1985), pp. 269-291, and PULC 47 (1986), pp 48-70. <strong>Note:</strong> Does this article materially supplement our appreciation of Smith's brief comment?</p> +
<p>Any idea what "rene base" might have meant in those days? Could it refer to a much older form of the team-tag game later known as prisoner's base? </p> +
<p>Any idea what 'cat and ball' might have been? In February 2021 Protoball does not find that phrase. It is conceivable that the author misheard his father's use of "bat and ball" as "cat and ball." </p> +
<p>Any idea who might have written this little barb at the NYT? Was it widely quoted in the US?</p> +
C
<p>Are Twentieth Century forms of Old-Cat know in New York City or other US locations? </p> +
1
<p>Are any reports available on the rules of the game as played at Round Hill?</p>
<p>Beck didn't give the game a particular name?</p> +
<p>Are earlier cases known?</p>
<p>Is it known whether these press accommodations were normally granted by a ball club, like the Eureka, or by the owner of the ballfield?</p> +
<p>Are other baserunning games known that were to be played on horseback?</p>
<p>Do we know what "Comic Monthlies" were?</p>
<p> </p> +
S
<p>Are other forms of Scrub remembered. Have rules been published authoritatively somewhere?</p> +
1
<p>Are the Sagas taken as accurate by scholars of Viking exploits?</p>
<p>When did the three siblings live in Vinland? Were the houses built in what is now US or Canada?</p>
<p>When were the Sagas written? </p>
<p> </p> +
W
<p>Are there documented forms of wiffle ball that use live baserunners?</p>
<p>Has anyone done a directory of known variant games played with a wiffle ball? </p> +
1
<p>Are there earlier claims for the first Knicks-style game in Canada? Item #1856.18 above was likely a predecessor game, right?</p> +
<p>Are we sure we haven't got Holmes <em>pere et fils</em> confused? OWH Sr (1809-1894), the poet and novelist, attended Andover and Harvard in the 1820s. OWH Jr (1841-1935) attended Harvard in the 1850s, served in the Civil War and became a justice of the US Supreme Court.--WCH</p>
<p> </p> +
<p>As a set, do these rules resemble contemporary rules for cricket in the 1860s? Do they align with cricket rules in 1800?</p>
<p>Do we know what the ball was like? Presumably, tennis balls were hand-wound string in this era, and the ball may have resembled cricket balls and base balls for the era. </p> +
<p>Asking, 3/18/2022:</p>
<p>Was it common for pro league clubs to play amateur clubs? (see BA response, above)</p>
<p>Did the game come off?</p>
<p>Asking, 3/19/2022:</p>
<p>Was the Boston club known as the Red Stockings in 1872?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Was the proposed game to amount to a pre-season warmup for the Boston pros?</p> +
<p>Bunyan was born in 1628. Are we sure that this event can be dated 1666, when he was nearly forty years old?</p> +
<p>Can anyone make a guess at the meaning of "hurra for Connecticut" for a game played in the far north of NYS? Was the area known for its emigres from CT?</p>
<p>Answer: I believe the reference is to the gains the Whig Party made in the recent CT elections. Just as the local Whigs beat the Loco-Focos (Democrats) at base ball, the CT Whigs beat the Democrats at the polls. [ba]</p> +
3
<p>Can historians identify the "game of ball" that Augustine might have played in the fourth Century? Are the translations to "game of ball," "games," and "sport" still deemed accurate?</p> +
B
<p>Can other readers throw any more light on this ancient (and, to Protoball, handsomely <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>obscure</em></span>) text?</p> +
1
<p>Can readers provide insight as to what game was played on Boston Common in 1854, whether there was a post Civil War league in this area, and otherwise help us interpret this account? </p> +
L
<p>Can the Shakespeare citation be located?</p>
<p>Yes. The cite is to Cymbeline, Act 5, Scene 3. [ba] </p>
<div id="copyPaste"><span id="line-5.3.22" title="5.3.22">"He with two striplings—lads more like to run</span><br/><span id="line-5.3.23" title="5.3.23">The country base than to commit such slaughter,"</span></div>
<div class="post-inner section-inner"> </div> +
1
<p>Can this estimate be reconciled with #1859.40 above? The number of clubs doubled in one year?</p> +
<p>Can we add something about the first game, and the sites of each game? A bit more about interim game scoring?</p> +
B
1
<p>Can we assess the accuracy of his summary? Is wicket known to be played in the vicinity or in other colleges?</p>
<p>Cutting p. 113 says the "wicket ground was in the rear of the chapel" thus confirming that wicket was played on the campus. [ba]</p> +
<p>Can we assume that 'pedal members' pertained to the feet, and that it was thus foot ball, and not the two base-running games that caused the bruises? </p> +
<p>Can we be certain that this was a base-running game? Can we rule out that the game was a vigorous 1800's form of handball?</p> +
<p>Can we clarify what game Forbes played (rounders? round ball?). </p>
<p> Reader Reply: I would suggest that this is reasonably persuasive evidence that Brits and Yanks were playing effectively the same game, under whatever name. No mention of rules disputes or confusion arises; and one gets the distinct impression, in parallel with ca. 1830s rules descriptions, that both national contingents set to without fuss and that there was little if any difference between English "rounders" and American "X-ball." --WCHicklin (date unspecified).</p> +
<p>Can we confirm this citation, and that it refers to cricket? Do we know of any earlier public announcements of safe-haven games?</p> +
<p>Can we determine from biographical information where and when Barry attended college? Is it significant that Barry reprises the phrase "urge the flying ball," seen as a cricket phrase in Pope [see #1730.1] and Gray [#1747.1]? Did Barry live/play in MD?</p> +
<p>Can we determine the SC location recalled, why Tom dated it as circa 1802, or what form the ballplaying took? </p> +
<p>Can we determine whether 17th-century balslaen was a batting/baserunning game, or was it in the field-hockey, or handball, or golf, families of games?</p>
<p>Was "New Netherland" confined to the Manhattan area or did it extend northward into the Hudson River valley?</p>
<p>Is "circa 1660" a defensible approximation for this find?</p>
<p>Was balslaen played in Holland? Could it have influenced English ballplaying, including cricket and English base ball??</p>
<p> </p> +
<p>Can we determine whether this game was played by the emerging Massachusetts rules or traditional local custom?</p>
<p> </p> +
T
<p>Can we discover more details on the tradition of mature women being central to early Easter ballplaying festivities?</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p> +
A
<p>Can we discover the geographic range of play of this game? Do local variations exist in Alaska?</p> +
1
<p>Can we find any clear basis for the report of 1856 establishment of modern base ball? </p>
<p>[ba] Yes. </p>
<p>Andreas' Chicago, p. 613, says that the Union Base Ball Club organized Aug. 12, 1856.</p>
<p>Andreas' book claim is obviously referencing a notice in the <em>Chicago Daily Democratic Press</em>, Aug. 12, 1856, p. 3, col. 1:</p>
<p>"Union Base Ball Club.--A company of young men will meet this (Tuesday) evening at the Hope Hose Carriage House at 8 o'clock, to organize under the above name and elect officers for the year.</p>
<p>All active young men who need exercise and good sport, are invited to be present."</p> +
<p>Can we find out more about the long, low wicket reportedly used in earliest forms of English cricket, and when the higher and narrower wicket evolved there?</p>
<p>Can we find out more about Silliman's life and his age when touring England? </p> +
<p>Can we find that <span>Clipper</span> report? Does the use of two backstops imply the continued application of tick-and-catch rules?</p> +